I am writing the following post as a collective response to a number of recent discussions with people who are as passionate about their beliefs as I. My philosophy is very simple:
Whether you subscribe to an organised religion, or subscribe to the religion of scientific and standardised philosophical reasoning, you are placing the onus of responsibility on another and choosing to be subservient to that belief system.
For as long as you hold the opinion of another above your own, whether it be that of a human or non, and be they long dead or alive, you are nevertheless renouncing responsibility for your beliefs, your thoughts and your actions.
The only conceivable reason that I can imagine why anyone would do that is because of a fear of having that kind of power and control within them. It makes you responsible for everything that happens to you, and that for many is a tough challenge because of the many implications it has. I speak from experience.
So, in choosing to place the onus on another, then you advocate your weakness, your irresponsibility, and thus your lack of self-worth, and you do yourself and others a great disservice.
The logic is sound, and the assumption reasonable.
There is only one requirement of us all, that we accept who we are, our achievements, our failures, our weaknesses and our strengths. In so doing we take responsibility for who we are, and we empower ourselves and those around us. If we cannot then we must look to another to serve that purpose, and that in itself has many implications.
Find your inner peace and live by it as best as you are able. Be kind to yourself. You are privileged to be as unique as you are, let that be your truth by honouring who you are and the many wonderful things that you are capable of. In so doing others cannot help but benefit from your presence and your energy.
Much love and blessings to all.
Ishaiya (Humble teacher and wise student.)
I am happy to answer any further questions regarding this post, but I would like to suggest that anyone wishing to do so should also take the attached comments into account as they form part of the debate here.
IshaiyaFreshlySqueezed 
Humble teacher definitely, good student yes. Great post my friend and I must say I like the conversation.
As always thank you for your comments, and for taking the time to read. I look forward to our encounters, and in enjoying your energy 🙂
I have just looked at your conversation with Theo… on Praysons blog and see exactly where this frustration came from. For a moment I thought I had irked you so much to dedicate a blog post in response.
What I find interesting in your exchange with the guy is his insistence that every decision he makes requires the seal of his god, and he claims god of the bible to be precise. One wonders what happens when god’s will and his will differ, that is, if he can know what his god wills.
Prayson though quite polite, presents half the argument. The number of times I visit his blog, it’s always the same story and some day in the past I told John, the worst person to debate with is a fundamentalist, the second one is a fundamentalist who reads philosophy.
Duly noted Noel.
Unfortunately you got caught up in the exchange and you got to see my less tolerant side. I do try to reign in it as much as I can. I think what irked me about the whole conversation on Prayson’s blog (if you can call it that) was not that I couldn’t keep up or justify what I was trying to advocate, it was more the fact that, it was totally pointless. You may have noticed that my responses were not as well crafted as they would normally have been, and that’s simply because I lost interest after about the second response and couldn’t be bothered to waste my effort trying to reason with Theo in an intelligent manner. Like I said, and like you, Ark and John said, it was pointless. I continued to respond because well, why not, it was amusing until I got bored and decided to post the above response for posterity.
However, yesterday morning was full of other events and messages from people unrelated to that debate that added to my general irritation and upset. Again apologies for snapping at you. My daughter went away yesterday on a school trip, and it’s the first time she has been away from home. I was a little worried and sad.
Today I am in better spirits, and happy to see your cheeky Koala face, and feel your very calming positive Noel energy 😀
Smile away my friend.
Once in a while we all get frustrated and no matter how best we try to reign on it, the flood gates stay open and it passes with anyone on its way.
Yes indeed.
I so get this. The circular issues on the non- provable nothingness but I must acknowledge as truisms since as a superstitious group of tribal nomads said so by oration and writings on bones, stones, or leaves. Which of course shows to be changed and burned and redrafted which now is ink and paper in bindings oozing a vengeful schizophrenic deity.
So you have to bang head on wall while life is still demanding you adhere to your other responsibilities.
There are some who call me harsh or better yet a fanatic because I challenge them to prove that homosexuals are against god, women are lesser beings, apostates should be killed, witches exist and should be killed, slavery is a good thing………not, but………..oh, no don’t bring this into it because I have it all wrong even if the book states that and don’t blame the religion as the religious are not following there religion even though they really are………..go figure. Then when asked where oh where is it being practiced correctly…….there is silence………….
Yeah…….I get this.
I’m glad you get it. It’s interesting because some people thought I was being unduly harsh or judgemental in my philosophy, and although I wrote this post in the spirit of making my point known to persons in particular, there is nothing I would change about it. My philosophy holds true. It is thus a simple decision that the individual is left with, as to how they relate to it. Judging by some of the responses all it proved was that most of us are not really that weak and subservient, it’s just a convenient social tool. Many of us play the submissive in order to be accepted by our peers. We all do it, even if it contradicts our own private beliefs – our true beliefs. I think few people have the guts to say what they truly believe and be consistent with it. For me being honest and consistent is part of maintaining my integrity. If it means ruffling a few feathers in the process, then so be it, no harm will ever come of it. Personal re-evaluation is a mighty fine thing and I believe we should all practise it willingly, and openly without the overbearing need to create rules and structures in which that happens.
Thank you muchly for your input bigstick1. I do love a good debate 😉
Nicely put, and it is precisely this reason why i loathe religion so much. It displaces responsibility. It’s an excuse.
That said, one cannot possibly participate in all forms of science so belief in the work of others is needed. As Eric Foltease said:
“The reason science will always be superior to religion is the built in mechanisms for self correction: thesis + anti-thesis = hypothesis. Ideas and theories can be tested and changed as new information comes to light. Try that with Dogma, if you don’t mind the threat of excommunication, ostracism, ridicule, abuse, bigotry, seizure of property, prejudice, and if you’re really lucky, being burned alive at the stake.”
You have to know by now that I place great importance on engaging with others, and participating in the discussion and exploration of ideas. You are absolutely right in saying that collaboration, and belief in others is important and necessary. Surely that’s what the human endeavour is all about? It would be immensely boring and non-productive to be the only person kicking about on the planet.
We need social interaction, when and if it is productive. However, when it becomes counter-productive and prescriptive then it leaves very little room to manoeuvre and to keep a healthy status quo, in all aspects of life, intrinsically and extrinsically. Diversity is good; prejudice and dogma are inevitable; good and evil/bad will prevail until we collectively decide to call it something else, and deal with it responsibly. But that requires an evaluation of personal beliefs, as I’m sure you will agree.
Only when you understand your position in the greater scheme of society and life can you make quality judgements about how best you can participate, with the minimum amount counter-productivity. Intent behind the reasoning is important in my view. There will always be someone for whom your decisions are disadvantageous, again a product of human diversity, and again inevitable. But what can you do?
Some little splinter group will always introduce new innovation, whether it is a new version of religion or a new development in the sciences, or new social reforms and developments in education, whatever it takes to shake up the old and tired dogma that perpetuates a violation of human well-being.
We’ve come along way in our development as a species, but not far enough yet in my view. We still collectively have much to learn about….pfft… well, a lot of things, compassion for ourselves and others being a major one. This is the crux of what I advocate, respect for yourself and others no matter what palm-tree you wish to shade yourself with. All positive, productive reasoning and thinking is good in my mind.
Here, here!
Ha! 🙂
You’re English… is it “here, here” or “hear, hear!”… I’ve never actually discovered which one is correct
“hear hear!” short for “hear him, hear him” used in the 17th century to direct people to listen to a speaker, and obviously now used in the House of Commons.
Why thank you!
You know how I like to be of service ;D
Great post. I agree that following dogmatically is lazy and a good way to avoid thinking. However, there is nothing wrong with subscribing to a systematic way of thinking. If a person is open to the possibility of being challanged, chances are that person is a thinker. However, I think the mathematician, Kurt Gödel proved that at the bottom of every system is an assumption. (I could be wrong, though.) ;>)
I would love to respond to your comment, but for fear of repeating myself I would ask you to check out my previous comment to John Zande which kind of sums up what I want to say in a nutshell.
With reference to Kurt Goedel that you mention, I would go as far as to add that there is an assumption at the bottom of every thought. You might like to check out my post on assumptions if you haven’t already:
http://wp.me/p1T8nQ-g9
Always a pleasure to read your comments, thanks for reading!
Best
Maria
”For as long as you hold the opinion of another above your own, whether it be that of a human or non, and be they long dead or alive, you are nevertheless renouncing responsibility for your beliefs, your thoughts and your actions.”
Am I correct in saying that this statement assumes that one is prepared to subjugate one’s own opinion because of another’s bullying tactics? Be they an individual or group?
However, if one’s opinion is based on the soundness and good sense of another why is this relinquishing personal responsibility merely if it differs from one’s original opinion.?
This was actually in direct response to another thread where debate is probably raging still – on Prayson’s blog, where some such person was staunchly advocating that they were totally at the mercy of their god, and that all responsibility for moral ethics was out of their hands.
Obviously it is true to say that you can never clearly define where personal opinion and responsibility and that of another really begins or ends. But that you do have a choice to change things, and take control no matter how difficult that is or how long it takes you to do that. I can relate to this particular one as I’m sure you may be aware.
Not everybody is aware that it is their choice to make whether they subjugate themselves to another’s bullying tactics or not. And even if someone else has a sound opinion, I would still decide whether I thought it was valid or not based on my own reasoning. That was a tough lesson to learn, but a very useful one.
Apparently I contradict myself a lot these days, but then I’m human and humans are fickle folk aren’t they?
Ah..Prayson.Somewhat of a dickhead, I’m afraid.You should have mentioned up front.This would have cleared up everything in one word.
He has a licence from God, I believe, and also, Plantinga and every other philosopher that in any way supports his god-belief and morally warped agenda.
His site should also carry a government mental health warning. I truly have compassion for his child.
She won’t know what hit her when she grows up and by then it may be too late.
You know what, it’s not him that I had a problem with, I actually found him to be relatively polite considering how obtuse he was pretending to be. It was Theologetics that decided they would get in on the act taking personal offence to the fact that I had questioned Prayson’s intelligence at all. But by all accounts he/she/it has given up. I win 🙂
Yes, he is polite, almost churlishly so, but like so many wacko off the wall fundamentalists he invites discussion merely to piddle on everyone’s cornflakes. And he will not relent. Whenever he has been forced into a corner through careful and logical discussion he will appeal to his god or simply refuse to engage any more. If you peruse his site almost every commenter that has challenged the premise of his post – and showed the holes in it or more than likely the moral philosophy he appeals to, he will eventually snub.
And he is the same on every blog he chooses to visit as well.
He has absolutely no interest in honest, open discussion.
Well, he obviously decided I wasn’t worth the effort after about the third reply. But John did warn me about him. I have to say I expected Theologetics to respond further, I was going to have some fun, but no still waiting.
A dissenting opinion is not an option.;)
And you should have taken John’s advice. But don’t worry…we all make that mistake initially. It’s how his species feeds….on souls. Fortunately, some escape to tell the tale.
Shudders involuntarily.
‘Tis best to have a stiff whiskey and a nice hot bath. 🙂
If it wasn’t for John I wouldn’t have got involved! I was blissfully unaware that Prayson had even replied as I don’t do e-mail follows of comment threads, so I rely on the little orange speech bubble on the top bar to ping. John was in fact egging me on to respond and get involved, despite his warning.
Can’t trust these bloody Aussies…even if they live in Brazil!
🙂 Damn right, tricky buggers!
Well said, my friend. In the universal language-Cheers! (a raised glass, that is.)
Why thank you. Cheers back at ya friend!
I’ve grown to respect other people’s choices as important for the quality of their lives. I try to respect their choice of religion or spirituality as an important element of their lives, no matter what they express with it. So long as they are not oppressing or abusing others with their practice, as it then become a humanity offense for me. This is the only time I will ‘go in.’
Anything other than that I don’t get into, as I don’t think any person on this earth has all the answers, yet bits of it live in all of us (and in contradicting perspectives) at times.
So this particular discourse I stay out of unless I know the person, and we know one another intimately (so they know my views do not exist to obliterate any one but my own personal commitment in the world and I can discuss theirs with them taking care to address the nuances of that person that apply). But even then, I’m not usually taking the debate stance for the above reason.
However, it is very difficult to do as the subject of religion/spirituality spills out of people at every turn. Interesting post.
I am with you totally on this. I have utter respect for other people’s beliefs, so long as it doesn’t impinge on the freedom or wellbeing of others. I also have respect for my own beliefs, which for me has been a hard won fight. I’ve spent most of my life being a social pariah, whether in other people’s eyes or my own.
This post then was in response to having been verbally attacked by certain other bloggers who saw fit to assume a level of authority over me. For me that’s not acceptable. We are all equal as far as I am concerned, and free to express our views without necessarily passing judgement.
You see I think it’s important to debate, I enjoy it. But it becomes hard work if it becomes a mud slinging match, because any good intent goes out of the window.
For me I guess I’m tired of hiding (and I only speak for me personally here, it’s not a reflection of anyone else). I have a view and I have a lot to say that I’m passionate about, and I believe to an extent that it’s good to challenge people’s thought processes, and that it’s healthy to evaluate where you stand in the greater scheme of things. So I know in so doing I stick my head above the parapet, and so be it. I have nothing to lose, because no matter what happens I’m the one that is ultimately responsible for the beliefs I hold about myself.
Thank you T for your sound contribution to this discussion, your comments and friendship are much appreciated.
Ish xo
Yes, I get it. And I did that as well (debated folks when I felt I was being attacked). This was more entertainment or political stuff, but even then, I’m careful because it rarely sends anyone to thinking.
Instead you’re in a standoff exerting spiritual energies you may not want to, along with the physical one of typing it all out, and in the end you’re not sure if the points got through – at all. Still, there is a time to debate.
Each person’s internal alarm let’s them know.
But with spiritual concepts/religion, I tend to get off the field. It’s not the way I prefer to handle difference (via debate). But people get really heated and attacky around spiritual beliefs. So I’m not surprised you were.
You have my support for standing up for yourself Ish.
Just don’t let people trip your wire because they’re trying to read how brilliant they think they are (sure you know that’s what the round about is really about sometimes). Smh.
Thank-you for reading and receiving my comments.
I know you’re already exhausted with all this too. xo
I think I get involved in such things sometimes just to test my own resolve, I find it helpful to get a reality check once in a while. But I do suffer the emotional and spiritual aftereffects. Like I did here I made sure that I put all of that irritation to good use by doing something productive with it, and I have enjoyed the debate that has ensued because of it. I trust and believe that there is a reason for everything, so I try and go with the flow as much as possible even if it means I get neck deep. I was actually trying to lure said attackers to my blog, just out of curiosity, but none of them has taken the bait. Oh well, I guess they are not ready to have their minds stretched just yet 🙂
I really enjoy our conversations, you are such a sound person, and you always make me feel at ease and at peace with myself. Thank you T xo
Hahaha. Some people on WordPress are so self consumed, it doesn’t even dawn on some to go that extra step and research a person. Smh. Ahhhhh that’s the world now. No one can be bothered to even look.
Well, think of this. I follow some people who I interact with regularly (they enjoy the exchange too) who have never even clicked into my blog. They have great blogs and have their regulars whose blogs they visit, but I notice those regulars stay the same. No new ones added.
People are pretty afraid of people.
Sometimes that is what is so great about children. With the really young ones, that’s rarely there. Haha.
Constant curiosity! 🙂
Ah well adults and our shrinking selves.
I enjoy our conversations too. Thank-you for taking the time to go through this again. I know I was late to the drama. Haha.
You’re not late to the drama at all. It’s nice to see one of my blog posts has legs, as in it is of interest for longer than a day! Maintaining regular interest is hard work because it requires a lot of writing. Maybe I’m missing a trick here. I still don’t get how some people get so much traffic and I just don’t! lol
Ah actually I get enough traffic to keep me ticking over, and I am really really grateful to have the regular and familiar faces visit my blogs, people who are becoming good friends.
I can’t speak for everyone else, but time is a big factor for me, and as much as I would love to nose around the blogs of all the people that have and do visit me over the months, there just isn’t enough time in the day. I’ve lost a lot of regular followers, who are still there in cyber spirit, but who clearly have given up looking at my sites. It’s clear to me that loyalty is something you really have to work on. I could be wrong though. I do wonder sometimes if what I write is just too far out there.
I think you are right too that people are pretty afraid of others. It’s the pack mentality we humans have that makes us so guarded perhaps, and even more afraid to engage in conversation for fear of reprisals. Those reprisals are few and far between thankfully, and when they do happen they are very short lived.
Very true what you say about children lacking inhibition when it comes to talking to others. All three of my children are like that, talk to anyone and anything. It can get a little bit testing at times, particularly when they are divulging your deepest darkest secrets to the nearest stranger! haha 🙂
Hahahaha – I bet (divulging your deepest darkest secrets). This makes me smile regularly. I’d say it’s the biggest most unexpected joy in my life – listening to random kids talk or talk to me, divulging too much or doing too much, then watching the mom or dad try to repair the damage with compassion. Because I know from my nieces and nephews, this didn’t come with any manual. Haha.
I love it. It’s like performance art. I used to work with a little autistic boy and talk with his little sister sometimes (4). All of it tickled me so much I have to say, it was the most fun and the strongest heart massage o a regular. It’s ALOT of WORK kids.
But my…..what a gift! [Broad smile]
Ish I’m having to put my cat to sleep…I had a little light on and just discovered turning off that light and getting kinda quiet calms her. *Like….a baby!*
This is so wow.
Anyway, ahhhh traffic. Yes. Be grateful for the small intimacies you get to have now, with the loyalists. Over time, more will appear and it may start to become overwhelming.
I don’t have traffic either. My regular traffic are people I am developing friendships with. But there will be others in time, we don’t need everyone.
I’ve noticed there are those who visit your blog only for a visit back really. You go to their blog and think, what interests this person in MY BLOG?! Then you notice them on another blog that doesn’t seem to match their style at all! So…
Sorry taking so long to get to the other comment. About to get to it NOW. I read it and loved so much of what your said!
As far as keeping up with people….I do it little by little over the course of a week. But I also delete blogs I may have added, who never responded to comments on their blog or visited mine. Why write a public blog if people’s presence is so unimportant to you? Odd.
Anyway, I also discover some nice surprises that way. People reveal dimensions of themselves you may not have seen before. But then, that can go both ways. Sometimes it’s a pleasant surprise, other times the shock is not a good one. o_0
I don’t know about that, because I certainly take responsibility for my actions when I think I’m wrong, and all my thoughts and beliefs. And I do not fear that kind of power within me, coming from me or given to me, I am more than willing to take it. None of this makes me weak either, because I know what I’m capable of, I don’t need to be filled with self worth, I would rather have the light shined on others any day, and smile to myself that I was a help.
I think the way you are looking at this, is based on the assumption we are giving away ourselves when we have strong beliefs, when in fact we are gaining TWICE as much!!! We do not have to sacrifice any of our ‘opinions’ or dignity when what we are sacrificing is our heart! 🙂
The whole point of my post was not an attack on people’s beliefs, but about the importance of taking responsibility for your beliefs and your actions, which it is most obvious to me that you do. You of course do not need my seal of approval, and that is not my intention at all. But I do have a right to say what I feel and believe too, and this is why I have this blog. You and I are not so different, even though our labels may differ in places.
I love our novel length conversations. I think you are an amazing person, and I wish I had the guts to do what you do and jump off a mountain or two! 🙂
well, I don’t know if thats guts or insanity…hahaha but I love it. and thank you. I took no offense. I truly believe we all should be left to our own beliefs, and not force them on others, or God forbid kill for them….but I do try to spread mine, as this is what Yeshuah wanted…and I truly do wish others could enjoy the peace and love I am filled with…. 🙂 something else occurred to me the other day….do you see people who have a yellow center in their aura very often? do most people have a light colored center? just curious…..as usual…. am dying to know if this IS a part of God, like I think it may be… 🙂
Yellow centre? Sounds like an egg! Hehe only kidding, in my mind there is no better colour to be filled with. It is indeed the colour of the divine energy, for you that’s god, for me that is the energy of All That Is 🙂 It is the colour that flows through my solar-plexus at all times, my divinity and all knowingness. Although generally speaking the colour of divinity is more of a soft mauve colour. You see with you I see a strong sun-yellow colour at your centre, and a very deep dark blue almost black around your throat and head area. Maybe a more sky blue around your heart and chest area. And orange at your finger-tips, almost trailing off like whisps of smoke, or energy. Which says to me that you are very spiritual, which I know anyway, you have a boundless energy that does not seem to come from your body at all. When you speak, people know about it. You have a very strong presence, which some people may find awkward at times until they get to know you and realise that you are a wonderful person. You always speak from the heart, that’s what the clear sky blue is. The orange means you have creative magic at your fingertips, so you like to create things with your hands. You would make a good sculptor 🙂
thats so cool. but what’s the black around my head and neck??? eeekk 😉
Oh no nothing to worry about, that’s what tells me that you are a bit headstrong and not afraid to speak your mind. It’s the colours around your centre, around your solar-plexus and your heart that are the important ones.
shwew!!! lol had me worried a minute there, of course I should be JET black!!! lol
all that makes me feel good, to know I truly am connected to God, because I genuinely feel it. Its nice to know it’s not all in my head! Thanks sweety, have a great day!!!
No probs! You have a good day too!
Great post. I try to mind my own business when it comes to religion, folks take it so seriously. Like Chris Rock said in Dogma: they took a good idea and messed it up by building a belief system around it.
Thanks for reading, glad you liked it.
You’re right people do take religion so seriously, but if invited I can’t help but get involved. I think it’s good to both challenge and be challenged when it come to beliefs, it’s healthy and I think lessens the chances of people turning into dangerous individuals if done in the right way. I think you can have a good debate, even about religion if you avoid being offensive. But that’s just me.
Dogma was a good film! Buddy Jesus 🙂
Thank you for visiting my blog today. I appreciate the time you took to stop by. May your day be filled with joy and peace.
BE ENCOURAGED! BE BLESSED!
Likewise my friend. Always a pleasure to meet new bloggers. You have some wonderful images on your blog 🙂
Blessings to you and enjoy the rest of your weekend!
Ishaiya
Wow…this is quite the conversation you have going and so DEEP. Interesting to read some of the comments. You are thoughtful and DEEP in responding Ishaiya. This is very different than my silly but sweet little blog about my animals. I feel a bit intimidated. In regards to your opinions I don’t think you are being harsh just passionate about your views on self determination. Having said that I must insert we do need to learn from others from time to time. Why reinvent the wheel?
Thanks for taking the time to read, and thank you for your input too. We only need to do what we need to do in order to be happy, and of course that necessarily involves interacting with others. Debates always come across as being one-sided, but as I was speaking about my own personal philosophy misunderstandings and objections were inevitable. You can’t please everyone unfortunately, but what you can do is be clear about what you believe and be prepared to stick to it. Why reinvent the wheel? Because everybody seems to forget why it was useful in the first place 🙂
Blessings to you and have a wonderful weekend!
Ishaiya